Optimization : is it possible to replace 2 Lagrange multipliers by a single one. Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Number of Lagrange MultipliersTwo Lagrange multipliers with one equationLagrange multipliers split LagrangiansLagrange multipliers…what is my constraint?Lagrange Multipliers for linear functionalsMultiple equations Lagrange multipliers.Method of Lagrange multipliers for multiple constraintsLagrange multipliers and Jacobian rankLagrange Multipliers: “What is a Critical Point?”When is there a symmetry between constraint and objective function in Lagrange multipliers?
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Optimization : is it possible to replace 2 Lagrange multipliers by a single one.
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Number of Lagrange MultipliersTwo Lagrange multipliers with one equationLagrange multipliers split LagrangiansLagrange multipliers…what is my constraint?Lagrange Multipliers for linear functionalsMultiple equations Lagrange multipliers.Method of Lagrange multipliers for multiple constraintsLagrange multipliers and Jacobian rankLagrange Multipliers: “What is a Critical Point?”When is there a symmetry between constraint and objective function in Lagrange multipliers?
$begingroup$
The question is simple: "find the point closest to the origin that is on the intersection line of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$."
Normal method would use two Lagrange multipliers and get the point $(2,4,4)$. I get that. BUT I used the following method and failed to get the same result:
I designed an equivalent constraint from the 2 constraints given above:
$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 = 0$
And then I tried to use only one Lagrange multiplier since we only have one constraint now. However, I cannot seem to get $(2,4,4)$ So my question is: what went wrong? Did I miss something?
calculus optimization lagrange-multiplier
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The question is simple: "find the point closest to the origin that is on the intersection line of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$."
Normal method would use two Lagrange multipliers and get the point $(2,4,4)$. I get that. BUT I used the following method and failed to get the same result:
I designed an equivalent constraint from the 2 constraints given above:
$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 = 0$
And then I tried to use only one Lagrange multiplier since we only have one constraint now. However, I cannot seem to get $(2,4,4)$ So my question is: what went wrong? Did I miss something?
calculus optimization lagrange-multiplier
New contributor
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Please show us your work that doesn't work. It should.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:18
$begingroup$
@Yves Daoust I did it the same way you showed in your answer. If you try plugging (2,4,4) back into your equations, you will see that it is not a solution. I think jawheele may have pointed out where the problem lies.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:42
$begingroup$
Two things : 1) I have taken the liberty to change your title in order to attract more people on this issue (ctd)...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:16
$begingroup$
2) I will wite a second edit to my answer that parallels the answer by jawheele.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:17
$begingroup$
Looks good. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 17:21
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The question is simple: "find the point closest to the origin that is on the intersection line of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$."
Normal method would use two Lagrange multipliers and get the point $(2,4,4)$. I get that. BUT I used the following method and failed to get the same result:
I designed an equivalent constraint from the 2 constraints given above:
$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 = 0$
And then I tried to use only one Lagrange multiplier since we only have one constraint now. However, I cannot seem to get $(2,4,4)$ So my question is: what went wrong? Did I miss something?
calculus optimization lagrange-multiplier
New contributor
$endgroup$
The question is simple: "find the point closest to the origin that is on the intersection line of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$."
Normal method would use two Lagrange multipliers and get the point $(2,4,4)$. I get that. BUT I used the following method and failed to get the same result:
I designed an equivalent constraint from the 2 constraints given above:
$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 = 0$
And then I tried to use only one Lagrange multiplier since we only have one constraint now. However, I cannot seem to get $(2,4,4)$ So my question is: what went wrong? Did I miss something?
calculus optimization lagrange-multiplier
calculus optimization lagrange-multiplier
New contributor
New contributor
edited Apr 9 at 17:14
Jean Marie
31.5k42355
31.5k42355
New contributor
asked Apr 8 at 20:48
BarblogBarblog
165
165
New contributor
New contributor
$begingroup$
Please show us your work that doesn't work. It should.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:18
$begingroup$
@Yves Daoust I did it the same way you showed in your answer. If you try plugging (2,4,4) back into your equations, you will see that it is not a solution. I think jawheele may have pointed out where the problem lies.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:42
$begingroup$
Two things : 1) I have taken the liberty to change your title in order to attract more people on this issue (ctd)...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:16
$begingroup$
2) I will wite a second edit to my answer that parallels the answer by jawheele.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:17
$begingroup$
Looks good. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 17:21
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Please show us your work that doesn't work. It should.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:18
$begingroup$
@Yves Daoust I did it the same way you showed in your answer. If you try plugging (2,4,4) back into your equations, you will see that it is not a solution. I think jawheele may have pointed out where the problem lies.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:42
$begingroup$
Two things : 1) I have taken the liberty to change your title in order to attract more people on this issue (ctd)...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:16
$begingroup$
2) I will wite a second edit to my answer that parallels the answer by jawheele.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:17
$begingroup$
Looks good. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 17:21
$begingroup$
Please show us your work that doesn't work. It should.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:18
$begingroup$
Please show us your work that doesn't work. It should.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:18
$begingroup$
@Yves Daoust I did it the same way you showed in your answer. If you try plugging (2,4,4) back into your equations, you will see that it is not a solution. I think jawheele may have pointed out where the problem lies.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:42
$begingroup$
@Yves Daoust I did it the same way you showed in your answer. If you try plugging (2,4,4) back into your equations, you will see that it is not a solution. I think jawheele may have pointed out where the problem lies.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:42
$begingroup$
Two things : 1) I have taken the liberty to change your title in order to attract more people on this issue (ctd)...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:16
$begingroup$
Two things : 1) I have taken the liberty to change your title in order to attract more people on this issue (ctd)...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:16
$begingroup$
2) I will wite a second edit to my answer that parallels the answer by jawheele.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:17
$begingroup$
2) I will wite a second edit to my answer that parallels the answer by jawheele.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:17
$begingroup$
Looks good. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 17:21
$begingroup$
Looks good. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 17:21
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
$mathbfEDIT$: I previously posted a "solution" agreeing that the OP's method works, but I was incorrect; this is a correct (to the best of my knowledge) revision.
The method of Lagrange multipliers for a single constraint seeks to extremize a real-valued function $f(vecx)$ subject to the constraint $g(vecx)=0$. That is, the solution $vecx_0$ must extremize the restriction of $f$ to $S equiv g(vecx)=0 $. The method makes use of the fact that, if $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$, then $S$ is a differentiable surface in a neighborhood of $x_0$ with normal vector $nabla g(vecx_0)$, and since the restriction $f|_S$ is extremized at $x_0$, we must then have that $nabla f(vecx_0)$ is normal to the surface (or else $f$ would be increasing along a curve through $S$ with tangent at $vecx_0$ equal to the projection of $nabla f(vecx_0)$ onto the tangent space $T_vecx_0S$). That is, $nabla f(vecx_0) = lambda_0 nabla g(vecx_0)$ for some $lambda_0 in mathbbR$. So, if one defines the function
$$L(vecx,lambda) equiv f(vecx)-lambda g(vecx) $$
Then $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda_0)=0$ ($nabla$ here is the gradient in $n+1$ dimensions). The above logic and therefore this conclusion, however, were contingent on the statement that $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$. If this is not satisfied, the extremizer $vecx_0$ of $f|_S$ need not satisfy $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda) = 0$ for any $lambda in mathbbR$, and we may not be able to recover the solution $vecx_0$ by finding stationary points of $L$, and this is the precisely the problem in your approach.
Indeed, if $g$ is a sum of squares of functions, $g(vecx)=sum_k (g_k(vecx))^2$, then $g(vecx)=0 iff g_k(vecx)=0$ for each $k$, so for every $vecx_0 in S$
$$nabla g(vecx_0) = sum_k 2g_k(vecx_0) nabla g_k(vecx_0) = 0$$
So no point in $S$ satisfies the hypotheses necessary to rely on the Lagrange method.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks a ton. Defining $tildeα≡2α(y+2z−12)$ and $tildeβ≡2α(x+y−6)$ seems to perfectly solve the set of equations. However, the bizarre thing is that when you plug in $(x,y,z) = (2,4,4)$ back into $∂tildef/∂x=2x−2α(x+y−6)=0$ for example, the equation does not hold. Isn't this weird? Please enlighten me on why this should happen.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 8 at 22:32
$begingroup$
I am not accustomed to see partial differentiation with respect to parameters $fracpartial fpartial alpha = fracpartial fpartial beta=0$ in Lagrange's method...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 8 at 23:14
1
$begingroup$
@jawheele I think it's better to edit your previous answer. You can remove the old text and replace it by some few sentences like "Edit : I had a first answer which was erroneous because such and such ; here is a new version"
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:25
1
$begingroup$
About my remark : I understand now that what is called derivation with respect to parameter say $alpha$ is just expressing that the first constraint, say $x+2z-12=0$ is verified.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:33
2
$begingroup$
Thanks jawheele and @JeanMarie for the help! Really appreciate it.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:45
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
A main reason is that, for the method of Lagrange multipliers, setting :
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= 0tag1$$
(I understand that you want it to be zero for the equivalence with your two linear equations)
or setting
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= ktag2$$
for any constant $k$ is the same. (constant $k$ disappears in differentiation).
Equation (2) describes a family of "russian dolls" cylinders $C_k$.
Edit 1 : in fact, encountering cylinders could be a good thing, because your problem could have been turned into this one ; take increasing radii circular cylinders $Gamma_R$ with common axis the intersection line $(L)$ of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$ and radius $R$. Stop when $R$ is such that $Gamma_R$ passes through the origin. And this $R$ is the looked-for distance.
But the issue is that, cylinders $C_k$ described in the first part do not grow in the good way (in fact they are elliptical cylinders) : the value of $k$ such that $C_k$ passes through the origin cannot be related to a distance...
But, we could remedy to this situation by defining $L$ otherwise, as the intersection of planes
$$P_1=u_1x+v_1y+w_1z-h_1=0, textand P_2=u_2x+v_2y+w_2z-h_2=0,$$
perpendicular one to the other ($u_1u_2+v_1v_2+w_1w_2=0$),
with normalized coefficients ($u_k^2+v_k^2+w_k^2=1$, $k=1,2$).
Then, by replacing $(y+2z−12)^2+(x+y−6)^2$ by $P_1^2+P_2^2$ we have now an expression which is the square of the distance to axis $(L)$, and we can use what we have said before.
Edit 2 : in fact one cannot rigorouly speak of $vecgrad(g)$ on $g(x,y,z)=0$ because this expression is equivalent to the equation of the straight line $(L)$ and a straight line in 3D has no gradient.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Please, see the edit to my initial answer.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 10:01
1
$begingroup$
Not at all, the constant $k$ makes a difference, it doesn't disappear.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:14
$begingroup$
Being downvoted although I have attempted in my Edit to provide a geometrical understanding in terms of growing radius cylinders is not very encouraging...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 11:15
$begingroup$
Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 11:49
1
$begingroup$
@JeanMarie Regarding your second edit, note that the condition $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$ refers to the gradient of $g$ as a function on $mathbbR^n$ (but evaluated at a point in $S$, in the notation of my answer)-- I'm not trying to invoke a metric or connection on $S$ to somehow define $nabla (g|_S)$.
$endgroup$
– jawheele
Apr 9 at 20:11
|
show 1 more comment
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
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active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
$mathbfEDIT$: I previously posted a "solution" agreeing that the OP's method works, but I was incorrect; this is a correct (to the best of my knowledge) revision.
The method of Lagrange multipliers for a single constraint seeks to extremize a real-valued function $f(vecx)$ subject to the constraint $g(vecx)=0$. That is, the solution $vecx_0$ must extremize the restriction of $f$ to $S equiv g(vecx)=0 $. The method makes use of the fact that, if $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$, then $S$ is a differentiable surface in a neighborhood of $x_0$ with normal vector $nabla g(vecx_0)$, and since the restriction $f|_S$ is extremized at $x_0$, we must then have that $nabla f(vecx_0)$ is normal to the surface (or else $f$ would be increasing along a curve through $S$ with tangent at $vecx_0$ equal to the projection of $nabla f(vecx_0)$ onto the tangent space $T_vecx_0S$). That is, $nabla f(vecx_0) = lambda_0 nabla g(vecx_0)$ for some $lambda_0 in mathbbR$. So, if one defines the function
$$L(vecx,lambda) equiv f(vecx)-lambda g(vecx) $$
Then $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda_0)=0$ ($nabla$ here is the gradient in $n+1$ dimensions). The above logic and therefore this conclusion, however, were contingent on the statement that $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$. If this is not satisfied, the extremizer $vecx_0$ of $f|_S$ need not satisfy $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda) = 0$ for any $lambda in mathbbR$, and we may not be able to recover the solution $vecx_0$ by finding stationary points of $L$, and this is the precisely the problem in your approach.
Indeed, if $g$ is a sum of squares of functions, $g(vecx)=sum_k (g_k(vecx))^2$, then $g(vecx)=0 iff g_k(vecx)=0$ for each $k$, so for every $vecx_0 in S$
$$nabla g(vecx_0) = sum_k 2g_k(vecx_0) nabla g_k(vecx_0) = 0$$
So no point in $S$ satisfies the hypotheses necessary to rely on the Lagrange method.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks a ton. Defining $tildeα≡2α(y+2z−12)$ and $tildeβ≡2α(x+y−6)$ seems to perfectly solve the set of equations. However, the bizarre thing is that when you plug in $(x,y,z) = (2,4,4)$ back into $∂tildef/∂x=2x−2α(x+y−6)=0$ for example, the equation does not hold. Isn't this weird? Please enlighten me on why this should happen.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 8 at 22:32
$begingroup$
I am not accustomed to see partial differentiation with respect to parameters $fracpartial fpartial alpha = fracpartial fpartial beta=0$ in Lagrange's method...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 8 at 23:14
1
$begingroup$
@jawheele I think it's better to edit your previous answer. You can remove the old text and replace it by some few sentences like "Edit : I had a first answer which was erroneous because such and such ; here is a new version"
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:25
1
$begingroup$
About my remark : I understand now that what is called derivation with respect to parameter say $alpha$ is just expressing that the first constraint, say $x+2z-12=0$ is verified.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:33
2
$begingroup$
Thanks jawheele and @JeanMarie for the help! Really appreciate it.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:45
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
$mathbfEDIT$: I previously posted a "solution" agreeing that the OP's method works, but I was incorrect; this is a correct (to the best of my knowledge) revision.
The method of Lagrange multipliers for a single constraint seeks to extremize a real-valued function $f(vecx)$ subject to the constraint $g(vecx)=0$. That is, the solution $vecx_0$ must extremize the restriction of $f$ to $S equiv g(vecx)=0 $. The method makes use of the fact that, if $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$, then $S$ is a differentiable surface in a neighborhood of $x_0$ with normal vector $nabla g(vecx_0)$, and since the restriction $f|_S$ is extremized at $x_0$, we must then have that $nabla f(vecx_0)$ is normal to the surface (or else $f$ would be increasing along a curve through $S$ with tangent at $vecx_0$ equal to the projection of $nabla f(vecx_0)$ onto the tangent space $T_vecx_0S$). That is, $nabla f(vecx_0) = lambda_0 nabla g(vecx_0)$ for some $lambda_0 in mathbbR$. So, if one defines the function
$$L(vecx,lambda) equiv f(vecx)-lambda g(vecx) $$
Then $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda_0)=0$ ($nabla$ here is the gradient in $n+1$ dimensions). The above logic and therefore this conclusion, however, were contingent on the statement that $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$. If this is not satisfied, the extremizer $vecx_0$ of $f|_S$ need not satisfy $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda) = 0$ for any $lambda in mathbbR$, and we may not be able to recover the solution $vecx_0$ by finding stationary points of $L$, and this is the precisely the problem in your approach.
Indeed, if $g$ is a sum of squares of functions, $g(vecx)=sum_k (g_k(vecx))^2$, then $g(vecx)=0 iff g_k(vecx)=0$ for each $k$, so for every $vecx_0 in S$
$$nabla g(vecx_0) = sum_k 2g_k(vecx_0) nabla g_k(vecx_0) = 0$$
So no point in $S$ satisfies the hypotheses necessary to rely on the Lagrange method.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks a ton. Defining $tildeα≡2α(y+2z−12)$ and $tildeβ≡2α(x+y−6)$ seems to perfectly solve the set of equations. However, the bizarre thing is that when you plug in $(x,y,z) = (2,4,4)$ back into $∂tildef/∂x=2x−2α(x+y−6)=0$ for example, the equation does not hold. Isn't this weird? Please enlighten me on why this should happen.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 8 at 22:32
$begingroup$
I am not accustomed to see partial differentiation with respect to parameters $fracpartial fpartial alpha = fracpartial fpartial beta=0$ in Lagrange's method...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 8 at 23:14
1
$begingroup$
@jawheele I think it's better to edit your previous answer. You can remove the old text and replace it by some few sentences like "Edit : I had a first answer which was erroneous because such and such ; here is a new version"
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:25
1
$begingroup$
About my remark : I understand now that what is called derivation with respect to parameter say $alpha$ is just expressing that the first constraint, say $x+2z-12=0$ is verified.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:33
2
$begingroup$
Thanks jawheele and @JeanMarie for the help! Really appreciate it.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:45
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
$mathbfEDIT$: I previously posted a "solution" agreeing that the OP's method works, but I was incorrect; this is a correct (to the best of my knowledge) revision.
The method of Lagrange multipliers for a single constraint seeks to extremize a real-valued function $f(vecx)$ subject to the constraint $g(vecx)=0$. That is, the solution $vecx_0$ must extremize the restriction of $f$ to $S equiv g(vecx)=0 $. The method makes use of the fact that, if $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$, then $S$ is a differentiable surface in a neighborhood of $x_0$ with normal vector $nabla g(vecx_0)$, and since the restriction $f|_S$ is extremized at $x_0$, we must then have that $nabla f(vecx_0)$ is normal to the surface (or else $f$ would be increasing along a curve through $S$ with tangent at $vecx_0$ equal to the projection of $nabla f(vecx_0)$ onto the tangent space $T_vecx_0S$). That is, $nabla f(vecx_0) = lambda_0 nabla g(vecx_0)$ for some $lambda_0 in mathbbR$. So, if one defines the function
$$L(vecx,lambda) equiv f(vecx)-lambda g(vecx) $$
Then $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda_0)=0$ ($nabla$ here is the gradient in $n+1$ dimensions). The above logic and therefore this conclusion, however, were contingent on the statement that $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$. If this is not satisfied, the extremizer $vecx_0$ of $f|_S$ need not satisfy $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda) = 0$ for any $lambda in mathbbR$, and we may not be able to recover the solution $vecx_0$ by finding stationary points of $L$, and this is the precisely the problem in your approach.
Indeed, if $g$ is a sum of squares of functions, $g(vecx)=sum_k (g_k(vecx))^2$, then $g(vecx)=0 iff g_k(vecx)=0$ for each $k$, so for every $vecx_0 in S$
$$nabla g(vecx_0) = sum_k 2g_k(vecx_0) nabla g_k(vecx_0) = 0$$
So no point in $S$ satisfies the hypotheses necessary to rely on the Lagrange method.
$endgroup$
$mathbfEDIT$: I previously posted a "solution" agreeing that the OP's method works, but I was incorrect; this is a correct (to the best of my knowledge) revision.
The method of Lagrange multipliers for a single constraint seeks to extremize a real-valued function $f(vecx)$ subject to the constraint $g(vecx)=0$. That is, the solution $vecx_0$ must extremize the restriction of $f$ to $S equiv g(vecx)=0 $. The method makes use of the fact that, if $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$, then $S$ is a differentiable surface in a neighborhood of $x_0$ with normal vector $nabla g(vecx_0)$, and since the restriction $f|_S$ is extremized at $x_0$, we must then have that $nabla f(vecx_0)$ is normal to the surface (or else $f$ would be increasing along a curve through $S$ with tangent at $vecx_0$ equal to the projection of $nabla f(vecx_0)$ onto the tangent space $T_vecx_0S$). That is, $nabla f(vecx_0) = lambda_0 nabla g(vecx_0)$ for some $lambda_0 in mathbbR$. So, if one defines the function
$$L(vecx,lambda) equiv f(vecx)-lambda g(vecx) $$
Then $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda_0)=0$ ($nabla$ here is the gradient in $n+1$ dimensions). The above logic and therefore this conclusion, however, were contingent on the statement that $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$. If this is not satisfied, the extremizer $vecx_0$ of $f|_S$ need not satisfy $nabla L(vecx_0,lambda) = 0$ for any $lambda in mathbbR$, and we may not be able to recover the solution $vecx_0$ by finding stationary points of $L$, and this is the precisely the problem in your approach.
Indeed, if $g$ is a sum of squares of functions, $g(vecx)=sum_k (g_k(vecx))^2$, then $g(vecx)=0 iff g_k(vecx)=0$ for each $k$, so for every $vecx_0 in S$
$$nabla g(vecx_0) = sum_k 2g_k(vecx_0) nabla g_k(vecx_0) = 0$$
So no point in $S$ satisfies the hypotheses necessary to rely on the Lagrange method.
edited Apr 9 at 0:53
answered Apr 8 at 21:49
jawheelejawheele
51639
51639
$begingroup$
Thanks a ton. Defining $tildeα≡2α(y+2z−12)$ and $tildeβ≡2α(x+y−6)$ seems to perfectly solve the set of equations. However, the bizarre thing is that when you plug in $(x,y,z) = (2,4,4)$ back into $∂tildef/∂x=2x−2α(x+y−6)=0$ for example, the equation does not hold. Isn't this weird? Please enlighten me on why this should happen.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 8 at 22:32
$begingroup$
I am not accustomed to see partial differentiation with respect to parameters $fracpartial fpartial alpha = fracpartial fpartial beta=0$ in Lagrange's method...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 8 at 23:14
1
$begingroup$
@jawheele I think it's better to edit your previous answer. You can remove the old text and replace it by some few sentences like "Edit : I had a first answer which was erroneous because such and such ; here is a new version"
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:25
1
$begingroup$
About my remark : I understand now that what is called derivation with respect to parameter say $alpha$ is just expressing that the first constraint, say $x+2z-12=0$ is verified.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:33
2
$begingroup$
Thanks jawheele and @JeanMarie for the help! Really appreciate it.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:45
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
Thanks a ton. Defining $tildeα≡2α(y+2z−12)$ and $tildeβ≡2α(x+y−6)$ seems to perfectly solve the set of equations. However, the bizarre thing is that when you plug in $(x,y,z) = (2,4,4)$ back into $∂tildef/∂x=2x−2α(x+y−6)=0$ for example, the equation does not hold. Isn't this weird? Please enlighten me on why this should happen.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 8 at 22:32
$begingroup$
I am not accustomed to see partial differentiation with respect to parameters $fracpartial fpartial alpha = fracpartial fpartial beta=0$ in Lagrange's method...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 8 at 23:14
1
$begingroup$
@jawheele I think it's better to edit your previous answer. You can remove the old text and replace it by some few sentences like "Edit : I had a first answer which was erroneous because such and such ; here is a new version"
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:25
1
$begingroup$
About my remark : I understand now that what is called derivation with respect to parameter say $alpha$ is just expressing that the first constraint, say $x+2z-12=0$ is verified.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:33
2
$begingroup$
Thanks jawheele and @JeanMarie for the help! Really appreciate it.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:45
$begingroup$
Thanks a ton. Defining $tildeα≡2α(y+2z−12)$ and $tildeβ≡2α(x+y−6)$ seems to perfectly solve the set of equations. However, the bizarre thing is that when you plug in $(x,y,z) = (2,4,4)$ back into $∂tildef/∂x=2x−2α(x+y−6)=0$ for example, the equation does not hold. Isn't this weird? Please enlighten me on why this should happen.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 8 at 22:32
$begingroup$
Thanks a ton. Defining $tildeα≡2α(y+2z−12)$ and $tildeβ≡2α(x+y−6)$ seems to perfectly solve the set of equations. However, the bizarre thing is that when you plug in $(x,y,z) = (2,4,4)$ back into $∂tildef/∂x=2x−2α(x+y−6)=0$ for example, the equation does not hold. Isn't this weird? Please enlighten me on why this should happen.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 8 at 22:32
$begingroup$
I am not accustomed to see partial differentiation with respect to parameters $fracpartial fpartial alpha = fracpartial fpartial beta=0$ in Lagrange's method...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 8 at 23:14
$begingroup$
I am not accustomed to see partial differentiation with respect to parameters $fracpartial fpartial alpha = fracpartial fpartial beta=0$ in Lagrange's method...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 8 at 23:14
1
1
$begingroup$
@jawheele I think it's better to edit your previous answer. You can remove the old text and replace it by some few sentences like "Edit : I had a first answer which was erroneous because such and such ; here is a new version"
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:25
$begingroup$
@jawheele I think it's better to edit your previous answer. You can remove the old text and replace it by some few sentences like "Edit : I had a first answer which was erroneous because such and such ; here is a new version"
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:25
1
1
$begingroup$
About my remark : I understand now that what is called derivation with respect to parameter say $alpha$ is just expressing that the first constraint, say $x+2z-12=0$ is verified.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:33
$begingroup$
About my remark : I understand now that what is called derivation with respect to parameter say $alpha$ is just expressing that the first constraint, say $x+2z-12=0$ is verified.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 0:33
2
2
$begingroup$
Thanks jawheele and @JeanMarie for the help! Really appreciate it.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:45
$begingroup$
Thanks jawheele and @JeanMarie for the help! Really appreciate it.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:45
|
show 4 more comments
$begingroup$
A main reason is that, for the method of Lagrange multipliers, setting :
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= 0tag1$$
(I understand that you want it to be zero for the equivalence with your two linear equations)
or setting
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= ktag2$$
for any constant $k$ is the same. (constant $k$ disappears in differentiation).
Equation (2) describes a family of "russian dolls" cylinders $C_k$.
Edit 1 : in fact, encountering cylinders could be a good thing, because your problem could have been turned into this one ; take increasing radii circular cylinders $Gamma_R$ with common axis the intersection line $(L)$ of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$ and radius $R$. Stop when $R$ is such that $Gamma_R$ passes through the origin. And this $R$ is the looked-for distance.
But the issue is that, cylinders $C_k$ described in the first part do not grow in the good way (in fact they are elliptical cylinders) : the value of $k$ such that $C_k$ passes through the origin cannot be related to a distance...
But, we could remedy to this situation by defining $L$ otherwise, as the intersection of planes
$$P_1=u_1x+v_1y+w_1z-h_1=0, textand P_2=u_2x+v_2y+w_2z-h_2=0,$$
perpendicular one to the other ($u_1u_2+v_1v_2+w_1w_2=0$),
with normalized coefficients ($u_k^2+v_k^2+w_k^2=1$, $k=1,2$).
Then, by replacing $(y+2z−12)^2+(x+y−6)^2$ by $P_1^2+P_2^2$ we have now an expression which is the square of the distance to axis $(L)$, and we can use what we have said before.
Edit 2 : in fact one cannot rigorouly speak of $vecgrad(g)$ on $g(x,y,z)=0$ because this expression is equivalent to the equation of the straight line $(L)$ and a straight line in 3D has no gradient.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Please, see the edit to my initial answer.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 10:01
1
$begingroup$
Not at all, the constant $k$ makes a difference, it doesn't disappear.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:14
$begingroup$
Being downvoted although I have attempted in my Edit to provide a geometrical understanding in terms of growing radius cylinders is not very encouraging...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 11:15
$begingroup$
Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 11:49
1
$begingroup$
@JeanMarie Regarding your second edit, note that the condition $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$ refers to the gradient of $g$ as a function on $mathbbR^n$ (but evaluated at a point in $S$, in the notation of my answer)-- I'm not trying to invoke a metric or connection on $S$ to somehow define $nabla (g|_S)$.
$endgroup$
– jawheele
Apr 9 at 20:11
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
A main reason is that, for the method of Lagrange multipliers, setting :
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= 0tag1$$
(I understand that you want it to be zero for the equivalence with your two linear equations)
or setting
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= ktag2$$
for any constant $k$ is the same. (constant $k$ disappears in differentiation).
Equation (2) describes a family of "russian dolls" cylinders $C_k$.
Edit 1 : in fact, encountering cylinders could be a good thing, because your problem could have been turned into this one ; take increasing radii circular cylinders $Gamma_R$ with common axis the intersection line $(L)$ of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$ and radius $R$. Stop when $R$ is such that $Gamma_R$ passes through the origin. And this $R$ is the looked-for distance.
But the issue is that, cylinders $C_k$ described in the first part do not grow in the good way (in fact they are elliptical cylinders) : the value of $k$ such that $C_k$ passes through the origin cannot be related to a distance...
But, we could remedy to this situation by defining $L$ otherwise, as the intersection of planes
$$P_1=u_1x+v_1y+w_1z-h_1=0, textand P_2=u_2x+v_2y+w_2z-h_2=0,$$
perpendicular one to the other ($u_1u_2+v_1v_2+w_1w_2=0$),
with normalized coefficients ($u_k^2+v_k^2+w_k^2=1$, $k=1,2$).
Then, by replacing $(y+2z−12)^2+(x+y−6)^2$ by $P_1^2+P_2^2$ we have now an expression which is the square of the distance to axis $(L)$, and we can use what we have said before.
Edit 2 : in fact one cannot rigorouly speak of $vecgrad(g)$ on $g(x,y,z)=0$ because this expression is equivalent to the equation of the straight line $(L)$ and a straight line in 3D has no gradient.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Please, see the edit to my initial answer.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 10:01
1
$begingroup$
Not at all, the constant $k$ makes a difference, it doesn't disappear.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:14
$begingroup$
Being downvoted although I have attempted in my Edit to provide a geometrical understanding in terms of growing radius cylinders is not very encouraging...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 11:15
$begingroup$
Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 11:49
1
$begingroup$
@JeanMarie Regarding your second edit, note that the condition $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$ refers to the gradient of $g$ as a function on $mathbbR^n$ (but evaluated at a point in $S$, in the notation of my answer)-- I'm not trying to invoke a metric or connection on $S$ to somehow define $nabla (g|_S)$.
$endgroup$
– jawheele
Apr 9 at 20:11
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
A main reason is that, for the method of Lagrange multipliers, setting :
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= 0tag1$$
(I understand that you want it to be zero for the equivalence with your two linear equations)
or setting
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= ktag2$$
for any constant $k$ is the same. (constant $k$ disappears in differentiation).
Equation (2) describes a family of "russian dolls" cylinders $C_k$.
Edit 1 : in fact, encountering cylinders could be a good thing, because your problem could have been turned into this one ; take increasing radii circular cylinders $Gamma_R$ with common axis the intersection line $(L)$ of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$ and radius $R$. Stop when $R$ is such that $Gamma_R$ passes through the origin. And this $R$ is the looked-for distance.
But the issue is that, cylinders $C_k$ described in the first part do not grow in the good way (in fact they are elliptical cylinders) : the value of $k$ such that $C_k$ passes through the origin cannot be related to a distance...
But, we could remedy to this situation by defining $L$ otherwise, as the intersection of planes
$$P_1=u_1x+v_1y+w_1z-h_1=0, textand P_2=u_2x+v_2y+w_2z-h_2=0,$$
perpendicular one to the other ($u_1u_2+v_1v_2+w_1w_2=0$),
with normalized coefficients ($u_k^2+v_k^2+w_k^2=1$, $k=1,2$).
Then, by replacing $(y+2z−12)^2+(x+y−6)^2$ by $P_1^2+P_2^2$ we have now an expression which is the square of the distance to axis $(L)$, and we can use what we have said before.
Edit 2 : in fact one cannot rigorouly speak of $vecgrad(g)$ on $g(x,y,z)=0$ because this expression is equivalent to the equation of the straight line $(L)$ and a straight line in 3D has no gradient.
$endgroup$
A main reason is that, for the method of Lagrange multipliers, setting :
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= 0tag1$$
(I understand that you want it to be zero for the equivalence with your two linear equations)
or setting
$$g(x,y,z) = (y+2z-12)^2 + (x+y-6)^2 colorred= ktag2$$
for any constant $k$ is the same. (constant $k$ disappears in differentiation).
Equation (2) describes a family of "russian dolls" cylinders $C_k$.
Edit 1 : in fact, encountering cylinders could be a good thing, because your problem could have been turned into this one ; take increasing radii circular cylinders $Gamma_R$ with common axis the intersection line $(L)$ of $y+2z=12$ and $x+y=6$ and radius $R$. Stop when $R$ is such that $Gamma_R$ passes through the origin. And this $R$ is the looked-for distance.
But the issue is that, cylinders $C_k$ described in the first part do not grow in the good way (in fact they are elliptical cylinders) : the value of $k$ such that $C_k$ passes through the origin cannot be related to a distance...
But, we could remedy to this situation by defining $L$ otherwise, as the intersection of planes
$$P_1=u_1x+v_1y+w_1z-h_1=0, textand P_2=u_2x+v_2y+w_2z-h_2=0,$$
perpendicular one to the other ($u_1u_2+v_1v_2+w_1w_2=0$),
with normalized coefficients ($u_k^2+v_k^2+w_k^2=1$, $k=1,2$).
Then, by replacing $(y+2z−12)^2+(x+y−6)^2$ by $P_1^2+P_2^2$ we have now an expression which is the square of the distance to axis $(L)$, and we can use what we have said before.
Edit 2 : in fact one cannot rigorouly speak of $vecgrad(g)$ on $g(x,y,z)=0$ because this expression is equivalent to the equation of the straight line $(L)$ and a straight line in 3D has no gradient.
edited Apr 9 at 20:42
answered Apr 8 at 21:42
Jean MarieJean Marie
31.5k42355
31.5k42355
$begingroup$
Please, see the edit to my initial answer.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 10:01
1
$begingroup$
Not at all, the constant $k$ makes a difference, it doesn't disappear.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:14
$begingroup$
Being downvoted although I have attempted in my Edit to provide a geometrical understanding in terms of growing radius cylinders is not very encouraging...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 11:15
$begingroup$
Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 11:49
1
$begingroup$
@JeanMarie Regarding your second edit, note that the condition $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$ refers to the gradient of $g$ as a function on $mathbbR^n$ (but evaluated at a point in $S$, in the notation of my answer)-- I'm not trying to invoke a metric or connection on $S$ to somehow define $nabla (g|_S)$.
$endgroup$
– jawheele
Apr 9 at 20:11
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Please, see the edit to my initial answer.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 10:01
1
$begingroup$
Not at all, the constant $k$ makes a difference, it doesn't disappear.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:14
$begingroup$
Being downvoted although I have attempted in my Edit to provide a geometrical understanding in terms of growing radius cylinders is not very encouraging...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 11:15
$begingroup$
Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 11:49
1
$begingroup$
@JeanMarie Regarding your second edit, note that the condition $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$ refers to the gradient of $g$ as a function on $mathbbR^n$ (but evaluated at a point in $S$, in the notation of my answer)-- I'm not trying to invoke a metric or connection on $S$ to somehow define $nabla (g|_S)$.
$endgroup$
– jawheele
Apr 9 at 20:11
$begingroup$
Please, see the edit to my initial answer.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 10:01
$begingroup$
Please, see the edit to my initial answer.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 10:01
1
1
$begingroup$
Not at all, the constant $k$ makes a difference, it doesn't disappear.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:14
$begingroup$
Not at all, the constant $k$ makes a difference, it doesn't disappear.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:14
$begingroup$
Being downvoted although I have attempted in my Edit to provide a geometrical understanding in terms of growing radius cylinders is not very encouraging...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 11:15
$begingroup$
Being downvoted although I have attempted in my Edit to provide a geometrical understanding in terms of growing radius cylinders is not very encouraging...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 11:15
$begingroup$
Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 11:49
$begingroup$
Errare humanum est. Perseverare diabolicum.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 11:49
1
1
$begingroup$
@JeanMarie Regarding your second edit, note that the condition $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$ refers to the gradient of $g$ as a function on $mathbbR^n$ (but evaluated at a point in $S$, in the notation of my answer)-- I'm not trying to invoke a metric or connection on $S$ to somehow define $nabla (g|_S)$.
$endgroup$
– jawheele
Apr 9 at 20:11
$begingroup$
@JeanMarie Regarding your second edit, note that the condition $nabla g(vecx_0) neq 0$ refers to the gradient of $g$ as a function on $mathbbR^n$ (but evaluated at a point in $S$, in the notation of my answer)-- I'm not trying to invoke a metric or connection on $S$ to somehow define $nabla (g|_S)$.
$endgroup$
– jawheele
Apr 9 at 20:11
|
show 1 more comment
Barblog is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Barblog is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Barblog is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Barblog is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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$begingroup$
Please show us your work that doesn't work. It should.
$endgroup$
– Yves Daoust
Apr 9 at 10:18
$begingroup$
@Yves Daoust I did it the same way you showed in your answer. If you try plugging (2,4,4) back into your equations, you will see that it is not a solution. I think jawheele may have pointed out where the problem lies.
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 14:42
$begingroup$
Two things : 1) I have taken the liberty to change your title in order to attract more people on this issue (ctd)...
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:16
$begingroup$
2) I will wite a second edit to my answer that parallels the answer by jawheele.
$endgroup$
– Jean Marie
Apr 9 at 17:17
$begingroup$
Looks good. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Barblog
Apr 9 at 17:21