Is it hard to solve equations such as $sin x + sin(2x sin x) = sin 3x$? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is $sin^3 x=frac34sin x - frac14sin 3x$? Is it possible to find radical solution of $sin(5beta)+sin(beta)=1$ and finding radical approximation of $pi$How to solve $3x+sin x = e^x$Using the Intermediate Value TheoremReference? filler: IRS, Rhind Papyrus, High-school algebraHow to solve simple trigonometry equation.Solving $sin x = 4sin10°sin40°sin(70°-x)$(Infinite) Nested radical equation, how to get the right solution?Finding number of solutions for a trigonometric equation.Is there a way to solve $sqrt a + sqrt b = sqrt n$ analytically?Is there a simple way to calculate $sin frac3pi10-sin fracpi10$?
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Is it hard to solve equations such as $sin x + sin(2x sin x) = sin 3x$?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is $sin^3 x=frac34sin x - frac14sin 3x$? Is it possible to find radical solution of $sin(5beta)+sin(beta)=1$ and finding radical approximation of $pi$How to solve $3x+sin x = e^x$Using the Intermediate Value TheoremReference? filler: IRS, Rhind Papyrus, High-school algebraHow to solve simple trigonometry equation.Solving $sin x = 4sin10°sin40°sin(70°-x)$(Infinite) Nested radical equation, how to get the right solution?Finding number of solutions for a trigonometric equation.Is there a way to solve $sqrt a + sqrt b = sqrt n$ analytically?Is there a simple way to calculate $sin frac3pi10-sin fracpi10$?
$begingroup$
I am talking about finding a simple, exact, non-trivial solution such as $x = pi/6$. Of course, $x=0$ or $x=pi$ are trivial solutions. I created this equation with its exact solution in mind beforehand, so that's how I know the solution, but if you don't know the solution to begin with, how easy is it to find it, other than using trial and error? Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students? Another similar equation is $sin x + sin(2x sin x) = 1$ and it also has $x=pi/6$ as a solution. Interestingly, Wolfram Alpha can not find the exact solution, only an approximation (with as many correct digits as you want). See plot of $sin x + sin(2x sin x) - sin 3x$, below.
calculus algebra-precalculus trigonometry
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am talking about finding a simple, exact, non-trivial solution such as $x = pi/6$. Of course, $x=0$ or $x=pi$ are trivial solutions. I created this equation with its exact solution in mind beforehand, so that's how I know the solution, but if you don't know the solution to begin with, how easy is it to find it, other than using trial and error? Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students? Another similar equation is $sin x + sin(2x sin x) = 1$ and it also has $x=pi/6$ as a solution. Interestingly, Wolfram Alpha can not find the exact solution, only an approximation (with as many correct digits as you want). See plot of $sin x + sin(2x sin x) - sin 3x$, below.
calculus algebra-precalculus trigonometry
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Yes, it is! The problem is that you have "x" both inside and outside a transcendental function. If I really had to solve such a problem I would probably write sine and cosine in terms of exponentials and try to use "Lambert's w function".
$endgroup$
– user247327
Apr 8 at 13:59
$begingroup$
For high school students writing $sin(A)+sin(B)$ or $sin(A)-sin(B)$ as a product, followed by a factorization should be about right. That idea is not helpful here so I would say no, not suitable.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Apr 8 at 14:01
$begingroup$
It is not easy even if you know that: . $ sin(3x)=3cdot sin x -4cdot sin^3 x. $Source:math.stackexchange.com/questions/97654/…
$endgroup$
– NoChance
Apr 8 at 14:41
$begingroup$
You will have a hard time finding anything with physical meaning with the form $sin(ldots sin(x))$. Sine is a function that converts angles to ratios and chaining them like this makes no physical sense.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 15:13
1
$begingroup$
" Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students?" You should never ask a student a question that you yourself can't answer!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Apr 8 at 16:14
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am talking about finding a simple, exact, non-trivial solution such as $x = pi/6$. Of course, $x=0$ or $x=pi$ are trivial solutions. I created this equation with its exact solution in mind beforehand, so that's how I know the solution, but if you don't know the solution to begin with, how easy is it to find it, other than using trial and error? Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students? Another similar equation is $sin x + sin(2x sin x) = 1$ and it also has $x=pi/6$ as a solution. Interestingly, Wolfram Alpha can not find the exact solution, only an approximation (with as many correct digits as you want). See plot of $sin x + sin(2x sin x) - sin 3x$, below.
calculus algebra-precalculus trigonometry
$endgroup$
I am talking about finding a simple, exact, non-trivial solution such as $x = pi/6$. Of course, $x=0$ or $x=pi$ are trivial solutions. I created this equation with its exact solution in mind beforehand, so that's how I know the solution, but if you don't know the solution to begin with, how easy is it to find it, other than using trial and error? Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students? Another similar equation is $sin x + sin(2x sin x) = 1$ and it also has $x=pi/6$ as a solution. Interestingly, Wolfram Alpha can not find the exact solution, only an approximation (with as many correct digits as you want). See plot of $sin x + sin(2x sin x) - sin 3x$, below.
calculus algebra-precalculus trigonometry
calculus algebra-precalculus trigonometry
edited Apr 8 at 15:04
Vincent Granville
asked Apr 8 at 13:50
Vincent GranvilleVincent Granville
697
697
3
$begingroup$
Yes, it is! The problem is that you have "x" both inside and outside a transcendental function. If I really had to solve such a problem I would probably write sine and cosine in terms of exponentials and try to use "Lambert's w function".
$endgroup$
– user247327
Apr 8 at 13:59
$begingroup$
For high school students writing $sin(A)+sin(B)$ or $sin(A)-sin(B)$ as a product, followed by a factorization should be about right. That idea is not helpful here so I would say no, not suitable.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Apr 8 at 14:01
$begingroup$
It is not easy even if you know that: . $ sin(3x)=3cdot sin x -4cdot sin^3 x. $Source:math.stackexchange.com/questions/97654/…
$endgroup$
– NoChance
Apr 8 at 14:41
$begingroup$
You will have a hard time finding anything with physical meaning with the form $sin(ldots sin(x))$. Sine is a function that converts angles to ratios and chaining them like this makes no physical sense.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 15:13
1
$begingroup$
" Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students?" You should never ask a student a question that you yourself can't answer!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Apr 8 at 16:14
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
Yes, it is! The problem is that you have "x" both inside and outside a transcendental function. If I really had to solve such a problem I would probably write sine and cosine in terms of exponentials and try to use "Lambert's w function".
$endgroup$
– user247327
Apr 8 at 13:59
$begingroup$
For high school students writing $sin(A)+sin(B)$ or $sin(A)-sin(B)$ as a product, followed by a factorization should be about right. That idea is not helpful here so I would say no, not suitable.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Apr 8 at 14:01
$begingroup$
It is not easy even if you know that: . $ sin(3x)=3cdot sin x -4cdot sin^3 x. $Source:math.stackexchange.com/questions/97654/…
$endgroup$
– NoChance
Apr 8 at 14:41
$begingroup$
You will have a hard time finding anything with physical meaning with the form $sin(ldots sin(x))$. Sine is a function that converts angles to ratios and chaining them like this makes no physical sense.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 15:13
1
$begingroup$
" Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students?" You should never ask a student a question that you yourself can't answer!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Apr 8 at 16:14
3
3
$begingroup$
Yes, it is! The problem is that you have "x" both inside and outside a transcendental function. If I really had to solve such a problem I would probably write sine and cosine in terms of exponentials and try to use "Lambert's w function".
$endgroup$
– user247327
Apr 8 at 13:59
$begingroup$
Yes, it is! The problem is that you have "x" both inside and outside a transcendental function. If I really had to solve such a problem I would probably write sine and cosine in terms of exponentials and try to use "Lambert's w function".
$endgroup$
– user247327
Apr 8 at 13:59
$begingroup$
For high school students writing $sin(A)+sin(B)$ or $sin(A)-sin(B)$ as a product, followed by a factorization should be about right. That idea is not helpful here so I would say no, not suitable.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Apr 8 at 14:01
$begingroup$
For high school students writing $sin(A)+sin(B)$ or $sin(A)-sin(B)$ as a product, followed by a factorization should be about right. That idea is not helpful here so I would say no, not suitable.
$endgroup$
– Paul
Apr 8 at 14:01
$begingroup$
It is not easy even if you know that: . $ sin(3x)=3cdot sin x -4cdot sin^3 x. $Source:math.stackexchange.com/questions/97654/…
$endgroup$
– NoChance
Apr 8 at 14:41
$begingroup$
It is not easy even if you know that: . $ sin(3x)=3cdot sin x -4cdot sin^3 x. $Source:math.stackexchange.com/questions/97654/…
$endgroup$
– NoChance
Apr 8 at 14:41
$begingroup$
You will have a hard time finding anything with physical meaning with the form $sin(ldots sin(x))$. Sine is a function that converts angles to ratios and chaining them like this makes no physical sense.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 15:13
$begingroup$
You will have a hard time finding anything with physical meaning with the form $sin(ldots sin(x))$. Sine is a function that converts angles to ratios and chaining them like this makes no physical sense.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 15:13
1
1
$begingroup$
" Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students?" You should never ask a student a question that you yourself can't answer!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Apr 8 at 16:14
$begingroup$
" Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students?" You should never ask a student a question that you yourself can't answer!
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Apr 8 at 16:14
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Just kidding : if you expect analytical solutions for such monsters, stop dreaming !
Now, being serious : take into account that the simple $x=cos(x)$ does not shw analytical solutions and needs to be solved using numerical methods.
Consider that you look for the zero's of
$$f(x)=sin (x) + sin(2x sin (x)) -sin (3x)$$ Plot the function and, visually, locate where (more or less) is the root you want (there is an infinite number of solutions). Call this value $x_0$ and start using Newton method which will update the guess according to
$$x_k+1=x_k-fracf(x_k)f'(x_k)$$
For example, there is root "around" $x=2$. Let us try to get the following iterates
$$left(
beginarraycc
k & x_k \
0 & 2.0000000000000000000 \
1 & 2.2077878077914573503 \
2 & 2.2372992747296569378 \
3 & 2.2389331854770425722 \
4 & 2.2389386369537428867 \
5 & 2.2389386370146724403
endarray
right)$$ which is the solution for twenty significant figures.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This equation has an infinite number of trivial solutions ($x = kpi$ where $k$ is any positive or negative integer), an infinite number of non-trivial solutions that can not be expressed analytically (for instance the one you found), and then one analytical, non-trivial solution, $x = pi/6$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:00
$begingroup$
Is the $pi/6$ solution really analytical? What analytical methods are used to identify it? Just guessing is not an analytical method.
$endgroup$
– Oscar Lanzi
Apr 8 at 15:05
$begingroup$
I did not use an analytical method to find the solution. It is part of a general type of equations, namely $f(x) + f(x f(x)) = 2 f(1)$ where one of the solutions must of course also be solution of $f(x) = 1$. In this case, $f(x) = 2sin x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:22
1
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - there is more than one analytical solution. Check out $x=tfrac56pi$ as well as $x=-tfrac76pi$. These are generated by solving $$sin(x) = sin(2 x sin(x))$$
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically. Examples are
$$ x - 2 sin(x) = 0 $$
$$ x cos(x)+sin(x) = 1 $$
But you can convert any equation that has sines and cosines of $x$ into a polynomial using the tan-half-angle substitution $t = tan left( fracx2 right)$.
Example, solve:
$$ 3 sin(x)-cos(x) = sqrt6 $$
Use the substitution $x = 2 tan^-1(t)$ in the expression above which yields
$$ beginaligned
sin(x) & = frac2 t1+t^2 \
cos(x) & = frac1-t^21+t^2
endaligned $$
Now solve the expression below in terms of $t$
$$ 3 frac2 t1+t^2 -frac1-t^21+t^2 = sqrt6 $$
$$ t = begincases 1+sqrt6 & text1st solution \
tfrac1+sqrt65 & text2nd solution endcases $$
with the solution in terms of $x$
$$ x = begincases 2 tan^-1left(1+sqrt6right) = 2.57727... & text1st solution \
2 tan^-1left( frac1+sqrt65right) = 1.20783... & text2nd solution endcases $$
Confirmation:
$$ left. 3 sin(2.57727)-cos(2.57727) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
and
$$ left. 3 sin(1.20783)-cos(1.20783) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically." True in general, but this one is an exception.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 16:37
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - do tell. Don't leave us hanging. What is the exception?
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 18:02
$begingroup$
Solution is $pi/6$. I posted more details in one of my articles, at dsc.news/2LFF9xS
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 18:58
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - I don't see how you go from $sin(3 x)$ to $2 f(1)$ for the RHS.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Yes, there was one extra step. Since $2 = 2 cdot 1$, and since $sin 3x = sin(pi/2) = 1$, I replace $1$ by $sin 3x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 22:27
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Just kidding : if you expect analytical solutions for such monsters, stop dreaming !
Now, being serious : take into account that the simple $x=cos(x)$ does not shw analytical solutions and needs to be solved using numerical methods.
Consider that you look for the zero's of
$$f(x)=sin (x) + sin(2x sin (x)) -sin (3x)$$ Plot the function and, visually, locate where (more or less) is the root you want (there is an infinite number of solutions). Call this value $x_0$ and start using Newton method which will update the guess according to
$$x_k+1=x_k-fracf(x_k)f'(x_k)$$
For example, there is root "around" $x=2$. Let us try to get the following iterates
$$left(
beginarraycc
k & x_k \
0 & 2.0000000000000000000 \
1 & 2.2077878077914573503 \
2 & 2.2372992747296569378 \
3 & 2.2389331854770425722 \
4 & 2.2389386369537428867 \
5 & 2.2389386370146724403
endarray
right)$$ which is the solution for twenty significant figures.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This equation has an infinite number of trivial solutions ($x = kpi$ where $k$ is any positive or negative integer), an infinite number of non-trivial solutions that can not be expressed analytically (for instance the one you found), and then one analytical, non-trivial solution, $x = pi/6$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:00
$begingroup$
Is the $pi/6$ solution really analytical? What analytical methods are used to identify it? Just guessing is not an analytical method.
$endgroup$
– Oscar Lanzi
Apr 8 at 15:05
$begingroup$
I did not use an analytical method to find the solution. It is part of a general type of equations, namely $f(x) + f(x f(x)) = 2 f(1)$ where one of the solutions must of course also be solution of $f(x) = 1$. In this case, $f(x) = 2sin x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:22
1
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - there is more than one analytical solution. Check out $x=tfrac56pi$ as well as $x=-tfrac76pi$. These are generated by solving $$sin(x) = sin(2 x sin(x))$$
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Just kidding : if you expect analytical solutions for such monsters, stop dreaming !
Now, being serious : take into account that the simple $x=cos(x)$ does not shw analytical solutions and needs to be solved using numerical methods.
Consider that you look for the zero's of
$$f(x)=sin (x) + sin(2x sin (x)) -sin (3x)$$ Plot the function and, visually, locate where (more or less) is the root you want (there is an infinite number of solutions). Call this value $x_0$ and start using Newton method which will update the guess according to
$$x_k+1=x_k-fracf(x_k)f'(x_k)$$
For example, there is root "around" $x=2$. Let us try to get the following iterates
$$left(
beginarraycc
k & x_k \
0 & 2.0000000000000000000 \
1 & 2.2077878077914573503 \
2 & 2.2372992747296569378 \
3 & 2.2389331854770425722 \
4 & 2.2389386369537428867 \
5 & 2.2389386370146724403
endarray
right)$$ which is the solution for twenty significant figures.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This equation has an infinite number of trivial solutions ($x = kpi$ where $k$ is any positive or negative integer), an infinite number of non-trivial solutions that can not be expressed analytically (for instance the one you found), and then one analytical, non-trivial solution, $x = pi/6$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:00
$begingroup$
Is the $pi/6$ solution really analytical? What analytical methods are used to identify it? Just guessing is not an analytical method.
$endgroup$
– Oscar Lanzi
Apr 8 at 15:05
$begingroup$
I did not use an analytical method to find the solution. It is part of a general type of equations, namely $f(x) + f(x f(x)) = 2 f(1)$ where one of the solutions must of course also be solution of $f(x) = 1$. In this case, $f(x) = 2sin x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:22
1
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - there is more than one analytical solution. Check out $x=tfrac56pi$ as well as $x=-tfrac76pi$. These are generated by solving $$sin(x) = sin(2 x sin(x))$$
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Just kidding : if you expect analytical solutions for such monsters, stop dreaming !
Now, being serious : take into account that the simple $x=cos(x)$ does not shw analytical solutions and needs to be solved using numerical methods.
Consider that you look for the zero's of
$$f(x)=sin (x) + sin(2x sin (x)) -sin (3x)$$ Plot the function and, visually, locate where (more or less) is the root you want (there is an infinite number of solutions). Call this value $x_0$ and start using Newton method which will update the guess according to
$$x_k+1=x_k-fracf(x_k)f'(x_k)$$
For example, there is root "around" $x=2$. Let us try to get the following iterates
$$left(
beginarraycc
k & x_k \
0 & 2.0000000000000000000 \
1 & 2.2077878077914573503 \
2 & 2.2372992747296569378 \
3 & 2.2389331854770425722 \
4 & 2.2389386369537428867 \
5 & 2.2389386370146724403
endarray
right)$$ which is the solution for twenty significant figures.
$endgroup$
Just kidding : if you expect analytical solutions for such monsters, stop dreaming !
Now, being serious : take into account that the simple $x=cos(x)$ does not shw analytical solutions and needs to be solved using numerical methods.
Consider that you look for the zero's of
$$f(x)=sin (x) + sin(2x sin (x)) -sin (3x)$$ Plot the function and, visually, locate where (more or less) is the root you want (there is an infinite number of solutions). Call this value $x_0$ and start using Newton method which will update the guess according to
$$x_k+1=x_k-fracf(x_k)f'(x_k)$$
For example, there is root "around" $x=2$. Let us try to get the following iterates
$$left(
beginarraycc
k & x_k \
0 & 2.0000000000000000000 \
1 & 2.2077878077914573503 \
2 & 2.2372992747296569378 \
3 & 2.2389331854770425722 \
4 & 2.2389386369537428867 \
5 & 2.2389386370146724403
endarray
right)$$ which is the solution for twenty significant figures.
answered Apr 8 at 14:42
Claude LeiboviciClaude Leibovici
125k1158135
125k1158135
$begingroup$
This equation has an infinite number of trivial solutions ($x = kpi$ where $k$ is any positive or negative integer), an infinite number of non-trivial solutions that can not be expressed analytically (for instance the one you found), and then one analytical, non-trivial solution, $x = pi/6$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:00
$begingroup$
Is the $pi/6$ solution really analytical? What analytical methods are used to identify it? Just guessing is not an analytical method.
$endgroup$
– Oscar Lanzi
Apr 8 at 15:05
$begingroup$
I did not use an analytical method to find the solution. It is part of a general type of equations, namely $f(x) + f(x f(x)) = 2 f(1)$ where one of the solutions must of course also be solution of $f(x) = 1$. In this case, $f(x) = 2sin x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:22
1
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - there is more than one analytical solution. Check out $x=tfrac56pi$ as well as $x=-tfrac76pi$. These are generated by solving $$sin(x) = sin(2 x sin(x))$$
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This equation has an infinite number of trivial solutions ($x = kpi$ where $k$ is any positive or negative integer), an infinite number of non-trivial solutions that can not be expressed analytically (for instance the one you found), and then one analytical, non-trivial solution, $x = pi/6$.
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– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:00
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Is the $pi/6$ solution really analytical? What analytical methods are used to identify it? Just guessing is not an analytical method.
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– Oscar Lanzi
Apr 8 at 15:05
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I did not use an analytical method to find the solution. It is part of a general type of equations, namely $f(x) + f(x f(x)) = 2 f(1)$ where one of the solutions must of course also be solution of $f(x) = 1$. In this case, $f(x) = 2sin x$.
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– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:22
1
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@VincentGranville - there is more than one analytical solution. Check out $x=tfrac56pi$ as well as $x=-tfrac76pi$. These are generated by solving $$sin(x) = sin(2 x sin(x))$$
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– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:44
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This equation has an infinite number of trivial solutions ($x = kpi$ where $k$ is any positive or negative integer), an infinite number of non-trivial solutions that can not be expressed analytically (for instance the one you found), and then one analytical, non-trivial solution, $x = pi/6$.
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– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:00
$begingroup$
This equation has an infinite number of trivial solutions ($x = kpi$ where $k$ is any positive or negative integer), an infinite number of non-trivial solutions that can not be expressed analytically (for instance the one you found), and then one analytical, non-trivial solution, $x = pi/6$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:00
$begingroup$
Is the $pi/6$ solution really analytical? What analytical methods are used to identify it? Just guessing is not an analytical method.
$endgroup$
– Oscar Lanzi
Apr 8 at 15:05
$begingroup$
Is the $pi/6$ solution really analytical? What analytical methods are used to identify it? Just guessing is not an analytical method.
$endgroup$
– Oscar Lanzi
Apr 8 at 15:05
$begingroup$
I did not use an analytical method to find the solution. It is part of a general type of equations, namely $f(x) + f(x f(x)) = 2 f(1)$ where one of the solutions must of course also be solution of $f(x) = 1$. In this case, $f(x) = 2sin x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:22
$begingroup$
I did not use an analytical method to find the solution. It is part of a general type of equations, namely $f(x) + f(x f(x)) = 2 f(1)$ where one of the solutions must of course also be solution of $f(x) = 1$. In this case, $f(x) = 2sin x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 15:22
1
1
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - there is more than one analytical solution. Check out $x=tfrac56pi$ as well as $x=-tfrac76pi$. These are generated by solving $$sin(x) = sin(2 x sin(x))$$
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:44
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - there is more than one analytical solution. Check out $x=tfrac56pi$ as well as $x=-tfrac76pi$. These are generated by solving $$sin(x) = sin(2 x sin(x))$$
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– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically. Examples are
$$ x - 2 sin(x) = 0 $$
$$ x cos(x)+sin(x) = 1 $$
But you can convert any equation that has sines and cosines of $x$ into a polynomial using the tan-half-angle substitution $t = tan left( fracx2 right)$.
Example, solve:
$$ 3 sin(x)-cos(x) = sqrt6 $$
Use the substitution $x = 2 tan^-1(t)$ in the expression above which yields
$$ beginaligned
sin(x) & = frac2 t1+t^2 \
cos(x) & = frac1-t^21+t^2
endaligned $$
Now solve the expression below in terms of $t$
$$ 3 frac2 t1+t^2 -frac1-t^21+t^2 = sqrt6 $$
$$ t = begincases 1+sqrt6 & text1st solution \
tfrac1+sqrt65 & text2nd solution endcases $$
with the solution in terms of $x$
$$ x = begincases 2 tan^-1left(1+sqrt6right) = 2.57727... & text1st solution \
2 tan^-1left( frac1+sqrt65right) = 1.20783... & text2nd solution endcases $$
Confirmation:
$$ left. 3 sin(2.57727)-cos(2.57727) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
and
$$ left. 3 sin(1.20783)-cos(1.20783) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
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"The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically." True in general, but this one is an exception.
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– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 16:37
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@VincentGranville - do tell. Don't leave us hanging. What is the exception?
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– ja72
Apr 8 at 18:02
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Solution is $pi/6$. I posted more details in one of my articles, at dsc.news/2LFF9xS
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– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 18:58
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@VincentGranville - I don't see how you go from $sin(3 x)$ to $2 f(1)$ for the RHS.
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– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:34
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Yes, there was one extra step. Since $2 = 2 cdot 1$, and since $sin 3x = sin(pi/2) = 1$, I replace $1$ by $sin 3x$.
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– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 22:27
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically. Examples are
$$ x - 2 sin(x) = 0 $$
$$ x cos(x)+sin(x) = 1 $$
But you can convert any equation that has sines and cosines of $x$ into a polynomial using the tan-half-angle substitution $t = tan left( fracx2 right)$.
Example, solve:
$$ 3 sin(x)-cos(x) = sqrt6 $$
Use the substitution $x = 2 tan^-1(t)$ in the expression above which yields
$$ beginaligned
sin(x) & = frac2 t1+t^2 \
cos(x) & = frac1-t^21+t^2
endaligned $$
Now solve the expression below in terms of $t$
$$ 3 frac2 t1+t^2 -frac1-t^21+t^2 = sqrt6 $$
$$ t = begincases 1+sqrt6 & text1st solution \
tfrac1+sqrt65 & text2nd solution endcases $$
with the solution in terms of $x$
$$ x = begincases 2 tan^-1left(1+sqrt6right) = 2.57727... & text1st solution \
2 tan^-1left( frac1+sqrt65right) = 1.20783... & text2nd solution endcases $$
Confirmation:
$$ left. 3 sin(2.57727)-cos(2.57727) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
and
$$ left. 3 sin(1.20783)-cos(1.20783) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
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$begingroup$
"The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically." True in general, but this one is an exception.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 16:37
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - do tell. Don't leave us hanging. What is the exception?
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 18:02
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Solution is $pi/6$. I posted more details in one of my articles, at dsc.news/2LFF9xS
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 18:58
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - I don't see how you go from $sin(3 x)$ to $2 f(1)$ for the RHS.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Yes, there was one extra step. Since $2 = 2 cdot 1$, and since $sin 3x = sin(pi/2) = 1$, I replace $1$ by $sin 3x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 22:27
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically. Examples are
$$ x - 2 sin(x) = 0 $$
$$ x cos(x)+sin(x) = 1 $$
But you can convert any equation that has sines and cosines of $x$ into a polynomial using the tan-half-angle substitution $t = tan left( fracx2 right)$.
Example, solve:
$$ 3 sin(x)-cos(x) = sqrt6 $$
Use the substitution $x = 2 tan^-1(t)$ in the expression above which yields
$$ beginaligned
sin(x) & = frac2 t1+t^2 \
cos(x) & = frac1-t^21+t^2
endaligned $$
Now solve the expression below in terms of $t$
$$ 3 frac2 t1+t^2 -frac1-t^21+t^2 = sqrt6 $$
$$ t = begincases 1+sqrt6 & text1st solution \
tfrac1+sqrt65 & text2nd solution endcases $$
with the solution in terms of $x$
$$ x = begincases 2 tan^-1left(1+sqrt6right) = 2.57727... & text1st solution \
2 tan^-1left( frac1+sqrt65right) = 1.20783... & text2nd solution endcases $$
Confirmation:
$$ left. 3 sin(2.57727)-cos(2.57727) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
and
$$ left. 3 sin(1.20783)-cos(1.20783) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
$endgroup$
The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically. Examples are
$$ x - 2 sin(x) = 0 $$
$$ x cos(x)+sin(x) = 1 $$
But you can convert any equation that has sines and cosines of $x$ into a polynomial using the tan-half-angle substitution $t = tan left( fracx2 right)$.
Example, solve:
$$ 3 sin(x)-cos(x) = sqrt6 $$
Use the substitution $x = 2 tan^-1(t)$ in the expression above which yields
$$ beginaligned
sin(x) & = frac2 t1+t^2 \
cos(x) & = frac1-t^21+t^2
endaligned $$
Now solve the expression below in terms of $t$
$$ 3 frac2 t1+t^2 -frac1-t^21+t^2 = sqrt6 $$
$$ t = begincases 1+sqrt6 & text1st solution \
tfrac1+sqrt65 & text2nd solution endcases $$
with the solution in terms of $x$
$$ x = begincases 2 tan^-1left(1+sqrt6right) = 2.57727... & text1st solution \
2 tan^-1left( frac1+sqrt65right) = 1.20783... & text2nd solution endcases $$
Confirmation:
$$ left. 3 sin(2.57727)-cos(2.57727) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
and
$$ left. 3 sin(1.20783)-cos(1.20783) = sqrt6 phantommatrix\ \ right} 2.4494897...=2.4494897... $$
answered Apr 8 at 16:03
ja72ja72
7,58212044
7,58212044
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"The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically." True in general, but this one is an exception.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 16:37
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - do tell. Don't leave us hanging. What is the exception?
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 18:02
$begingroup$
Solution is $pi/6$. I posted more details in one of my articles, at dsc.news/2LFF9xS
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 18:58
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - I don't see how you go from $sin(3 x)$ to $2 f(1)$ for the RHS.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Yes, there was one extra step. Since $2 = 2 cdot 1$, and since $sin 3x = sin(pi/2) = 1$, I replace $1$ by $sin 3x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 22:27
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically." True in general, but this one is an exception.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 16:37
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - do tell. Don't leave us hanging. What is the exception?
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 18:02
$begingroup$
Solution is $pi/6$. I posted more details in one of my articles, at dsc.news/2LFF9xS
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 18:58
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - I don't see how you go from $sin(3 x)$ to $2 f(1)$ for the RHS.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Yes, there was one extra step. Since $2 = 2 cdot 1$, and since $sin 3x = sin(pi/2) = 1$, I replace $1$ by $sin 3x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 22:27
$begingroup$
"The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically." True in general, but this one is an exception.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 16:37
$begingroup$
"The rule here is that anything that appears both inside and outside a transcendental function makes it impossible to solve analytically." True in general, but this one is an exception.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 16:37
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - do tell. Don't leave us hanging. What is the exception?
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 18:02
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - do tell. Don't leave us hanging. What is the exception?
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 18:02
$begingroup$
Solution is $pi/6$. I posted more details in one of my articles, at dsc.news/2LFF9xS
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 18:58
$begingroup$
Solution is $pi/6$. I posted more details in one of my articles, at dsc.news/2LFF9xS
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 18:58
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - I don't see how you go from $sin(3 x)$ to $2 f(1)$ for the RHS.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:34
$begingroup$
@VincentGranville - I don't see how you go from $sin(3 x)$ to $2 f(1)$ for the RHS.
$endgroup$
– ja72
Apr 8 at 20:34
$begingroup$
Yes, there was one extra step. Since $2 = 2 cdot 1$, and since $sin 3x = sin(pi/2) = 1$, I replace $1$ by $sin 3x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 22:27
$begingroup$
Yes, there was one extra step. Since $2 = 2 cdot 1$, and since $sin 3x = sin(pi/2) = 1$, I replace $1$ by $sin 3x$.
$endgroup$
– Vincent Granville
Apr 8 at 22:27
add a comment |
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Yes, it is! The problem is that you have "x" both inside and outside a transcendental function. If I really had to solve such a problem I would probably write sine and cosine in terms of exponentials and try to use "Lambert's w function".
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– user247327
Apr 8 at 13:59
$begingroup$
For high school students writing $sin(A)+sin(B)$ or $sin(A)-sin(B)$ as a product, followed by a factorization should be about right. That idea is not helpful here so I would say no, not suitable.
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– Paul
Apr 8 at 14:01
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It is not easy even if you know that: . $ sin(3x)=3cdot sin x -4cdot sin^3 x. $Source:math.stackexchange.com/questions/97654/…
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– NoChance
Apr 8 at 14:41
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You will have a hard time finding anything with physical meaning with the form $sin(ldots sin(x))$. Sine is a function that converts angles to ratios and chaining them like this makes no physical sense.
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– ja72
Apr 8 at 15:13
1
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" Is it an exam question that you could ask to high school students?" You should never ask a student a question that you yourself can't answer!
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– fleablood
Apr 8 at 16:14