“Human Knot” solvability probability The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InGenus of fattened knots and linksTying knot theory with traveling salesman problem (TSP)Crossing number and Torus linksLinking number and the factor $frac12$Actual Definition of the term: Hopf Band?Proving the rules of a complicated game are well definedWhat is $X_infty$ for a topological space $X$?Properties and conjectures about alternating knotsIs unknot a composite knot?Have similar theories like knot theory been developed in higher dimensions?

Landlord wants to switch my lease to a "Land contract" to "get back at the city"

Why isn't the circumferential light around the M87 black hole's event horizon symmetric?

FPGA - DIY Programming

What tool would a Roman-age civilization have for the breaking of silver and other metals into dust?

For what reasons would an animal species NOT cross a *horizontal* land bridge?

What is the most effective way of iterating a std::vector and why?

If I score a critical hit on an 18 or higher, what are my chances of getting a critical hit if I roll 3d20?

Can one be advised by a professor who is very far away?

Return to UK after being refused entry years previously

Is flight data recorder erased after every flight?

Protecting Dualbooting Windows from dangerous code (like rm -rf)

Is three citations per paragraph excessive for undergraduate research paper?

Why hard-Brexiteers don't insist on a hard border to prevent illegal immigration after Brexit?

When should I buy a clipper card after flying to OAK?

Origin of "cooter" meaning "vagina"

Why do we hear so much about the Trump administration deciding to impose and then remove tariffs?

Button changing it's text & action. Good or terrible?

Is "plugging out" electronic devices an American expression?

Deal with toxic manager when you can't quit

How to deal with fear of taking dependencies

What does Linus Torvalds mean when he says that Git "never ever" tracks a file?

Output the Arecibo Message

Aging parents with no investments

Falsification in Math vs Science



“Human Knot” solvability probability



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InGenus of fattened knots and linksTying knot theory with traveling salesman problem (TSP)Crossing number and Torus linksLinking number and the factor $frac12$Actual Definition of the term: Hopf Band?Proving the rules of a complicated game are well definedWhat is $X_infty$ for a topological space $X$?Properties and conjectures about alternating knotsIs unknot a composite knot?Have similar theories like knot theory been developed in higher dimensions?










1












$begingroup$


Somewhat surprisingly, I don't see a question about this.



There is a team-building (or just fun mathematical) game where a group of people hold hands with each other, usually trying not to hold hands with someone right next to you. The goal is then to "untangle the human knot" thus formed.



Folk wisdom says this can always be "solved", in the sense of twisting and moving to demonstrate the knot formed is just one unknot, but this isn't so, since you can form all sorts of knots. Probably forming a simple non-trivial link of circles would be easiest to demonstrate this.



But I am intrigued by a lack of easy-to-find references on the probability of such a configuration being the unknot. There is this MathOverflow question, which however has devolved into whether any link can be formed, which is NOT what I am asking. See also this Reddit thread and this Quora thread.



In any event, not only do I feel like probably there is a known answer, it is also not possible to search on this site for questions on MO, so hopefully it is appropriate to ask on MSE this question:




Given any reasonable set of definitions of this game and reasonable probability distribution given your definitions, what is the probability that such a link is the unknot, as a function of $n$ players?




Presumably this will vary by some assumptions on arm length or the exact rules (can you grasp your neighbor's hand, how are people arranged), so there could be multiple answers. I suppose it's likely the parity of $n$ will be involved as well.



As a hint, there is a comment to the MO question suggesting some possible references in somewhat difficult-to-access resources - but I don't care about references per se, I would like answers that are publicly available on a user-friendly and well-indexed site ... such as this one!










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Do you look particularly for unknot, or can we have several unlinked unknots as well? Do we care whether players arms are twisted, or whether they (ultimately) are all facing the same way (inwards or outwards)? Or are these all included in the freedom granted by "any reasonable set of definitions"?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Apr 6 at 10:55
















1












$begingroup$


Somewhat surprisingly, I don't see a question about this.



There is a team-building (or just fun mathematical) game where a group of people hold hands with each other, usually trying not to hold hands with someone right next to you. The goal is then to "untangle the human knot" thus formed.



Folk wisdom says this can always be "solved", in the sense of twisting and moving to demonstrate the knot formed is just one unknot, but this isn't so, since you can form all sorts of knots. Probably forming a simple non-trivial link of circles would be easiest to demonstrate this.



But I am intrigued by a lack of easy-to-find references on the probability of such a configuration being the unknot. There is this MathOverflow question, which however has devolved into whether any link can be formed, which is NOT what I am asking. See also this Reddit thread and this Quora thread.



In any event, not only do I feel like probably there is a known answer, it is also not possible to search on this site for questions on MO, so hopefully it is appropriate to ask on MSE this question:




Given any reasonable set of definitions of this game and reasonable probability distribution given your definitions, what is the probability that such a link is the unknot, as a function of $n$ players?




Presumably this will vary by some assumptions on arm length or the exact rules (can you grasp your neighbor's hand, how are people arranged), so there could be multiple answers. I suppose it's likely the parity of $n$ will be involved as well.



As a hint, there is a comment to the MO question suggesting some possible references in somewhat difficult-to-access resources - but I don't care about references per se, I would like answers that are publicly available on a user-friendly and well-indexed site ... such as this one!










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Do you look particularly for unknot, or can we have several unlinked unknots as well? Do we care whether players arms are twisted, or whether they (ultimately) are all facing the same way (inwards or outwards)? Or are these all included in the freedom granted by "any reasonable set of definitions"?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Apr 6 at 10:55














1












1








1





$begingroup$


Somewhat surprisingly, I don't see a question about this.



There is a team-building (or just fun mathematical) game where a group of people hold hands with each other, usually trying not to hold hands with someone right next to you. The goal is then to "untangle the human knot" thus formed.



Folk wisdom says this can always be "solved", in the sense of twisting and moving to demonstrate the knot formed is just one unknot, but this isn't so, since you can form all sorts of knots. Probably forming a simple non-trivial link of circles would be easiest to demonstrate this.



But I am intrigued by a lack of easy-to-find references on the probability of such a configuration being the unknot. There is this MathOverflow question, which however has devolved into whether any link can be formed, which is NOT what I am asking. See also this Reddit thread and this Quora thread.



In any event, not only do I feel like probably there is a known answer, it is also not possible to search on this site for questions on MO, so hopefully it is appropriate to ask on MSE this question:




Given any reasonable set of definitions of this game and reasonable probability distribution given your definitions, what is the probability that such a link is the unknot, as a function of $n$ players?




Presumably this will vary by some assumptions on arm length or the exact rules (can you grasp your neighbor's hand, how are people arranged), so there could be multiple answers. I suppose it's likely the parity of $n$ will be involved as well.



As a hint, there is a comment to the MO question suggesting some possible references in somewhat difficult-to-access resources - but I don't care about references per se, I would like answers that are publicly available on a user-friendly and well-indexed site ... such as this one!










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Somewhat surprisingly, I don't see a question about this.



There is a team-building (or just fun mathematical) game where a group of people hold hands with each other, usually trying not to hold hands with someone right next to you. The goal is then to "untangle the human knot" thus formed.



Folk wisdom says this can always be "solved", in the sense of twisting and moving to demonstrate the knot formed is just one unknot, but this isn't so, since you can form all sorts of knots. Probably forming a simple non-trivial link of circles would be easiest to demonstrate this.



But I am intrigued by a lack of easy-to-find references on the probability of such a configuration being the unknot. There is this MathOverflow question, which however has devolved into whether any link can be formed, which is NOT what I am asking. See also this Reddit thread and this Quora thread.



In any event, not only do I feel like probably there is a known answer, it is also not possible to search on this site for questions on MO, so hopefully it is appropriate to ask on MSE this question:




Given any reasonable set of definitions of this game and reasonable probability distribution given your definitions, what is the probability that such a link is the unknot, as a function of $n$ players?




Presumably this will vary by some assumptions on arm length or the exact rules (can you grasp your neighbor's hand, how are people arranged), so there could be multiple answers. I suppose it's likely the parity of $n$ will be involved as well.



As a hint, there is a comment to the MO question suggesting some possible references in somewhat difficult-to-access resources - but I don't care about references per se, I would like answers that are publicly available on a user-friendly and well-indexed site ... such as this one!







recreational-mathematics puzzle knot-theory






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Apr 6 at 10:37









kcrismankcrisman

1,5801021




1,5801021











  • $begingroup$
    Do you look particularly for unknot, or can we have several unlinked unknots as well? Do we care whether players arms are twisted, or whether they (ultimately) are all facing the same way (inwards or outwards)? Or are these all included in the freedom granted by "any reasonable set of definitions"?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Apr 6 at 10:55

















  • $begingroup$
    Do you look particularly for unknot, or can we have several unlinked unknots as well? Do we care whether players arms are twisted, or whether they (ultimately) are all facing the same way (inwards or outwards)? Or are these all included in the freedom granted by "any reasonable set of definitions"?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Apr 6 at 10:55
















$begingroup$
Do you look particularly for unknot, or can we have several unlinked unknots as well? Do we care whether players arms are twisted, or whether they (ultimately) are all facing the same way (inwards or outwards)? Or are these all included in the freedom granted by "any reasonable set of definitions"?
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Apr 6 at 10:55





$begingroup$
Do you look particularly for unknot, or can we have several unlinked unknots as well? Do we care whether players arms are twisted, or whether they (ultimately) are all facing the same way (inwards or outwards)? Or are these all included in the freedom granted by "any reasonable set of definitions"?
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Apr 6 at 10:55











1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

In a somewhat related MathOverflow question, where a closed loop is chosen at random as a polygonal path whose vertices lie on a sphere, there are some thoughts that the average crossing number of such a knot is something like $n^3/2$, where $n$ is the number of vertices. This would mean nontrivial knots are reasonably likely as the number of people grows, especially since the maximum crossing number of any such knot is bounded above by $n^2$.



Even-Zohar has a paper on models for random knots. The random jump model is sort of like the human knot, but people are allowed to be placed anywhere in a unit sphere. Numerical experiments suggest the probability of encountering an unknot vanishes faster than $exp(−O(n))$.



In that paper, there is a description of a model that is much closer to the human knot game: random grid diagrams. If I understand it correctly, the difference is that the order in which people hold hands matters. Figure 15 has a graph showing the sampled distributions for the Casson invariant $c_2$ (the order-$2$ Vassiliev invariant, the second coefficient of the Alexander-Conway polynomial) of random knots from different models (including the grid model). The value of $c_2$ for the unknot is $0$. If I'm reading the graph correctly, with about eighty people the probability of getting an unknot happens no more than $55%$ of the time. The actual probability is less since other knots also have $c_2=0$.



The paper cites what appears to be a 2007 PhD thesis by Gilad Cohen in which the human knot game is numerically analyzed. However, I cannot find a copy or a reference to it anywhere.



In one experimental analysis of the grid diagram model, they find the knotting probability approaches $1$ as $n$ increases. As an example, it looks like the human knot game (conditioned on people always forming a single closed loop) for ten people has nearly a $20%$ chance of being unable to be detangled, though I can't say for certain since I don't know how well this random model actually maps to the human knot game.



Anyway, the short of it is that it appears the answer is unknown right now, but there is numerical evidence to support the conjecture that, as the number of people playing the game increases, winning becomes arbitrarily improbable.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    );
    );
    , "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3176857%2fhuman-knot-solvability-probability%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    1












    $begingroup$

    In a somewhat related MathOverflow question, where a closed loop is chosen at random as a polygonal path whose vertices lie on a sphere, there are some thoughts that the average crossing number of such a knot is something like $n^3/2$, where $n$ is the number of vertices. This would mean nontrivial knots are reasonably likely as the number of people grows, especially since the maximum crossing number of any such knot is bounded above by $n^2$.



    Even-Zohar has a paper on models for random knots. The random jump model is sort of like the human knot, but people are allowed to be placed anywhere in a unit sphere. Numerical experiments suggest the probability of encountering an unknot vanishes faster than $exp(−O(n))$.



    In that paper, there is a description of a model that is much closer to the human knot game: random grid diagrams. If I understand it correctly, the difference is that the order in which people hold hands matters. Figure 15 has a graph showing the sampled distributions for the Casson invariant $c_2$ (the order-$2$ Vassiliev invariant, the second coefficient of the Alexander-Conway polynomial) of random knots from different models (including the grid model). The value of $c_2$ for the unknot is $0$. If I'm reading the graph correctly, with about eighty people the probability of getting an unknot happens no more than $55%$ of the time. The actual probability is less since other knots also have $c_2=0$.



    The paper cites what appears to be a 2007 PhD thesis by Gilad Cohen in which the human knot game is numerically analyzed. However, I cannot find a copy or a reference to it anywhere.



    In one experimental analysis of the grid diagram model, they find the knotting probability approaches $1$ as $n$ increases. As an example, it looks like the human knot game (conditioned on people always forming a single closed loop) for ten people has nearly a $20%$ chance of being unable to be detangled, though I can't say for certain since I don't know how well this random model actually maps to the human knot game.



    Anyway, the short of it is that it appears the answer is unknown right now, but there is numerical evidence to support the conjecture that, as the number of people playing the game increases, winning becomes arbitrarily improbable.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      1












      $begingroup$

      In a somewhat related MathOverflow question, where a closed loop is chosen at random as a polygonal path whose vertices lie on a sphere, there are some thoughts that the average crossing number of such a knot is something like $n^3/2$, where $n$ is the number of vertices. This would mean nontrivial knots are reasonably likely as the number of people grows, especially since the maximum crossing number of any such knot is bounded above by $n^2$.



      Even-Zohar has a paper on models for random knots. The random jump model is sort of like the human knot, but people are allowed to be placed anywhere in a unit sphere. Numerical experiments suggest the probability of encountering an unknot vanishes faster than $exp(−O(n))$.



      In that paper, there is a description of a model that is much closer to the human knot game: random grid diagrams. If I understand it correctly, the difference is that the order in which people hold hands matters. Figure 15 has a graph showing the sampled distributions for the Casson invariant $c_2$ (the order-$2$ Vassiliev invariant, the second coefficient of the Alexander-Conway polynomial) of random knots from different models (including the grid model). The value of $c_2$ for the unknot is $0$. If I'm reading the graph correctly, with about eighty people the probability of getting an unknot happens no more than $55%$ of the time. The actual probability is less since other knots also have $c_2=0$.



      The paper cites what appears to be a 2007 PhD thesis by Gilad Cohen in which the human knot game is numerically analyzed. However, I cannot find a copy or a reference to it anywhere.



      In one experimental analysis of the grid diagram model, they find the knotting probability approaches $1$ as $n$ increases. As an example, it looks like the human knot game (conditioned on people always forming a single closed loop) for ten people has nearly a $20%$ chance of being unable to be detangled, though I can't say for certain since I don't know how well this random model actually maps to the human knot game.



      Anyway, the short of it is that it appears the answer is unknown right now, but there is numerical evidence to support the conjecture that, as the number of people playing the game increases, winning becomes arbitrarily improbable.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        In a somewhat related MathOverflow question, where a closed loop is chosen at random as a polygonal path whose vertices lie on a sphere, there are some thoughts that the average crossing number of such a knot is something like $n^3/2$, where $n$ is the number of vertices. This would mean nontrivial knots are reasonably likely as the number of people grows, especially since the maximum crossing number of any such knot is bounded above by $n^2$.



        Even-Zohar has a paper on models for random knots. The random jump model is sort of like the human knot, but people are allowed to be placed anywhere in a unit sphere. Numerical experiments suggest the probability of encountering an unknot vanishes faster than $exp(−O(n))$.



        In that paper, there is a description of a model that is much closer to the human knot game: random grid diagrams. If I understand it correctly, the difference is that the order in which people hold hands matters. Figure 15 has a graph showing the sampled distributions for the Casson invariant $c_2$ (the order-$2$ Vassiliev invariant, the second coefficient of the Alexander-Conway polynomial) of random knots from different models (including the grid model). The value of $c_2$ for the unknot is $0$. If I'm reading the graph correctly, with about eighty people the probability of getting an unknot happens no more than $55%$ of the time. The actual probability is less since other knots also have $c_2=0$.



        The paper cites what appears to be a 2007 PhD thesis by Gilad Cohen in which the human knot game is numerically analyzed. However, I cannot find a copy or a reference to it anywhere.



        In one experimental analysis of the grid diagram model, they find the knotting probability approaches $1$ as $n$ increases. As an example, it looks like the human knot game (conditioned on people always forming a single closed loop) for ten people has nearly a $20%$ chance of being unable to be detangled, though I can't say for certain since I don't know how well this random model actually maps to the human knot game.



        Anyway, the short of it is that it appears the answer is unknown right now, but there is numerical evidence to support the conjecture that, as the number of people playing the game increases, winning becomes arbitrarily improbable.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        In a somewhat related MathOverflow question, where a closed loop is chosen at random as a polygonal path whose vertices lie on a sphere, there are some thoughts that the average crossing number of such a knot is something like $n^3/2$, where $n$ is the number of vertices. This would mean nontrivial knots are reasonably likely as the number of people grows, especially since the maximum crossing number of any such knot is bounded above by $n^2$.



        Even-Zohar has a paper on models for random knots. The random jump model is sort of like the human knot, but people are allowed to be placed anywhere in a unit sphere. Numerical experiments suggest the probability of encountering an unknot vanishes faster than $exp(−O(n))$.



        In that paper, there is a description of a model that is much closer to the human knot game: random grid diagrams. If I understand it correctly, the difference is that the order in which people hold hands matters. Figure 15 has a graph showing the sampled distributions for the Casson invariant $c_2$ (the order-$2$ Vassiliev invariant, the second coefficient of the Alexander-Conway polynomial) of random knots from different models (including the grid model). The value of $c_2$ for the unknot is $0$. If I'm reading the graph correctly, with about eighty people the probability of getting an unknot happens no more than $55%$ of the time. The actual probability is less since other knots also have $c_2=0$.



        The paper cites what appears to be a 2007 PhD thesis by Gilad Cohen in which the human knot game is numerically analyzed. However, I cannot find a copy or a reference to it anywhere.



        In one experimental analysis of the grid diagram model, they find the knotting probability approaches $1$ as $n$ increases. As an example, it looks like the human knot game (conditioned on people always forming a single closed loop) for ten people has nearly a $20%$ chance of being unable to be detangled, though I can't say for certain since I don't know how well this random model actually maps to the human knot game.



        Anyway, the short of it is that it appears the answer is unknown right now, but there is numerical evidence to support the conjecture that, as the number of people playing the game increases, winning becomes arbitrarily improbable.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Apr 6 at 19:28









        Kyle MillerKyle Miller

        10.1k930




        10.1k930



























            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3176857%2fhuman-knot-solvability-probability%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Hidroelektrana Sadržaj Povijest | Podjela hidroelektrana | Snaga dobivena u hidroelektranama | Dijelovi hidroelektrane | Uloga hidroelektrana u suvremenom svijetu | Prednosti hidroelektrana | Nedostaci hidroelektrana | Države s najvećom proizvodnjom hidro-električne energije | Deset najvećih hidroelektrana u svijetu | Hidroelektrane u Hrvatskoj | Izvori | Poveznice | Vanjske poveznice | Navigacijski izbornikTechnical Report, Version 2Zajedničkom poslužiteljuHidroelektranaHEP Proizvodnja d.o.o. - Hidroelektrane u Hrvatskoj

            Bosc Connection Yimello Approaching Angry The produce zaps the market. 구성 기록되다 변경...

            WordPress Information needed